By signing up to the Blaze News newsletter you agree to receive electronic communications from Blaze Media that may sometimes include advertisements or sponsored content. READ ALSO: Are the Biblical End Times Upon Us? The protocol also calls for multiple interventions if initial treatments are not effective essentially the subjects receive repeat treatments as long as possible until they report a response. He's effectively asked "look, according to your explanation we would expect miracles to occur actually in many more cases because god apparently has the the reasons and the motivation and the context for him to perform miracles there but he doesn't, so there's a plausibility issue there with with your explanation" Shermer's identified one aspect that seems to be accounted for poorly on the miracle explanation. It also calls into question the motives of God -- God is more concerned to give you a pool table than to cure leukemia in children or heart defects or nearly anything else. Well, yeah but could we be a bit more specific? And he went to a retreat for the healing of the mind. What is being missed here is it shouldn't matter what the skeptic says -- the evidence should be strong enough to convince the skeptic. It's always possible to ask for more (Couldn't more doctors have seen it? So her initial eyesight is 7/200, quite poor. Easily testable, and I'd be surprised if this is a real effect once you get past the selection bias and sociological effects, and have good controls including separating number of miracle reports from actual anomalous medical events. it can be also given as a nice gift to your friends, relatives, boyfriend or girlfriend. Try comparing these claims to, say, the difficulty in confirming the Higgs boson, gravity waves, black holes, or the accelerating universe. Craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens and a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener called Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles. In some of these cases, I'm expecting evidence that should be there if the claim is true. Barbara is a director of KeyCorp and Progressive Corporation. Sometimes running for their lives. He has served in a variety of teaching and leadership roles, including a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015. In this case, Shermer's argument is that there is a context (e.g. From my reading also, MS can also go into spontaneous remission -- usually temporary -- but we don't have any follow-ups, detailed timelines documented, etc We have stories. What is more striking, especially for people who don't like Pentecostals or Charismatics, what's more striking is that the survey also in those 10 countries dealt with Christians who didn't consider themselves Pentecostal or Charismatic. Stay up-to-date with current issues, Christian teachings, entertainment news, videos & more. You've done tremendous work on it that is a huge benefit to the Kingdom, not only with your technical biblical scholarship, but with this incredible stuff you've done on miracles. Yeah. The timeline of the events from the paper is. 5 John Wilkes Booth's Brother and Abe Lincoln's Son . Earlier in her career, she served as provost of Ohio State University. Keener doesn't explore alternative hypotheses and how he'd distinguish between them. If someone gets healed, you often can't get back in contact with that person -- "it almost feels like if a miracle happens you have about 48 hours and then their gone". Here I look into the papers he references in response. There isn't anything that could tie the prayer as the causal element, given that she was most likely prayed for often an we're picking out the one case before a claimed recovery. Despite several operations and treatments, Barbara continued to deteriorate to the point that she was put into respite with doctor's orders not to resuscitate. At this point anyone with any reasonable familiarity with how to assess the quality of medical studies should see that this is a worthless study. As you begin your hike, set your sights on a new direction. We had to cut 45% of it to make it as short as it was, but then again, I'm not known for writing short books. And they said, "Macular degeneration doesn't undegenerate." If you want to, for our listeners, if you want to read a little bit more about it Craig's written a fairly lengthy book on the whole, the whole narrative of that called Impossible Love. James: can we just make it a thing to always mention that like although it's not that popular these days that deism or non-interventionist form of theism are a thing like you can totally believe in god and still not be okay with miracles? "But my skepticism didn't go away.". My initial thought was that , A physics problem from a practice AP test came to my attention, when my daughter was in AP physics this past spring. Shermer: well the counterfactual what about the christian families who pray for their loved one who's dying from cancer and they just die nothing happens from the prayer that happens all the time. I wrote about some of these cases in another post and I've written about miracles many times. In 1972, having been blind for over 12 years, the individual reportedly regained her vision instantaneously after receiving proximal-intercessory-prayer (PIP). Sure. If you are willing to believe the Barbard Snynder case, then you should be willing to believe this woman was healed of Parkinson's with "Energy Healing" or you should believe in the Golden Plates of Joseph Smith (making you a Mormon). After all the investigations and scrutiny of the numerous claims, not one single credible and fully verified healing by God or any other non-existent deity . 2021 - All rights reserved. Her feet and fingers were suddenly straight and normal again. When his wife prayed, having been told that he was gone, the heart monitor "sprang back to life" and then the doctors were able to revive him. I cook breakfast sandwich and lunch sandwichs I'm also a cashier. And also, a lot of my African friends say, "Look, life in Africa's a miracle. Case studies may be suggestive, but they are there so that you can propose hypotheses to test more rigorously. Now we move on to a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener called Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles. One day in late 1962, the drummer announced that he had an idea for song that had come to him in dream the night before. The Surfaris were a California garage band with an average age of 15 who had been successful enough playing at sock hops and house parties that they were able to acquire a manager. I sort of think that these popular apologetics books will briefly touch on some of these tools that should be used but then that's a stand-in that makes people think that they're actually using them. Someone in the chat asked "do all of Keener's cases differ as much from what actually was reported to what was reported by him?" I think we could say your relationship with Medine and how you guys, the two of you made it together, counts as one of those major miracles in your life. "So, we know that at least 450 Christians began praying for her, because they wrote letters saying, 'We're praying for you.'". How is an epistemically responsible thing to do? She is an elected member of the American Law Institute. I just was trying to write a footnote for my Acts Commentary because one of the arguments against the reliability of Acts, you know, one fifth of Acts or one third of Mark roughly, deal with miracles. In particular, it includes an interview with Barbara Snyder, who was instantaneously healed from advanced multiple sclerosis, as also attested by her two physicians. And as a Christian I naturally did believe in miracles. A prolific author, he has written numerous bible commentaries and other works in biblical studies, in addition to his 2 volume work, Miracles. Then, on Pentecost Sunday, two of Synder's friends read her letters from those praying for her. Case Western Reserves Board of Trustees It seems we disagree on how much evidence is enough. And the way we proceed is that we use medical science to eliminate the six and we can't really confirm or disconfirm the last remaining one but because we eliminated all of the alternatives that must be the one right or at least it's reasonable to believe that this is the one -- it's the best explanation. This highlights many of the problems I've been talking about and we get to see it in real-time. The entire approach of those arguing for miracles focuses on the (presumed) successes but in any real study for a treatment, we need to know all of the cases -- the ones that worked and the ones that didn't -- to provide evidence of efficacy. I commented on the story here but there is very little to go on. In secular circles, well on the Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of it right away. These two cases are some of the best they have, and they are only modestly interesting, and have plausible mundane explanations. Barbara was married to the late Robert L. Snyder. Strobel said that he has long believed that Jesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels. Barbara Rook "Babs" Snyder is an American academic and president of the Association of American Universities. Presidents of Case Western Reserve University, President of Case Western Reserve University, "President Snyder expresses gratitude for CWRU community, bids farewell; video reflects on her tenure", "Case Western Reserve's Barbara Snyder's had a successful rebuilding year", "CWRU's Snyder earns no end of accolades", "What's next for Ohio State after Gee's retirement? What surprised you? 2022 Blaze Media LLC. Craig Keener: Yes. In his early 30s? She earned her bachelors degree from OSU. As an Atheist, of course it didn't. I am delighted that the board selected Barbara to lead AAU So I asked Antoinette Malumbay, "How long was it that Terese wasn't breathing?" Craig Keener: Yeah, she came on a fiance visa, which unfortunately took a bit longer than it should have because by the time we finally made up our minds to get together 9/11 happened right when we were getting ready to send the materials in. James Fodor compares healing claims to homeopathy -- we have millions claiming an effect, and if we just counted those then we might be convinced that homeopathy was a real treatment. Tell our listeners a little bit a how you two met and why you wrote the book, Impossible Love. I confess I haven't made it through all 1000 pages. She, first of all she ended up having to flee from the capital where she was teaching French at the U.S. Embassy, sorry, she was teaching English at the U.S. Embassy for Francophone Congolese residents. "[5], In 2011, Cleveland.com reported Barbara R. Snyder's total compensation for the year of 2009 was $778,874.[6]. DiSanto said that he would provide additional updates regarding the search They were saying "This is all from Congo. Given the number of miracle claims, and the bold claims of Christians throughout these videos, and the proliferation of cameras in people's pockets, there should be thousands of convincing videos of miracles. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was "ambivalent" about whether these miracles still happen today. Strobel said. The story is of a person who was paralyzed from the waist down due to a car accident and 22 years later they were prayed for and healed. It also highlights the need for detailed timelines to establish what the effect really is, before trying to grasp at causes. You've written a lot of commentaries on the Gospels. The latter has more eyewitness testimony than we have for Barbara Snyder. Craig Keener: Well everybody has a love story. Untrustworthy Our Cultural Knowledge Crisis, [BONUS] The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self. Millions of unique designs by independent artists. Craig Keener: Yeah. Doesn't seem to be anything other than perhaps theology. Scott Rae: Yeah. Finally, this gripe about a naturalistic bias is completely misguided. in economics from Southern Methodist University. 1) A young soldier loses a limb in a battle and the limb is destroyed. And of course there's no way to test medically because there was no medic op available. I want this post to be the place where I put as many of the specific miracle claims, the actual evidence presented, and some of the responses. Or in Matthew 12 and Luke 11 where is says, "If I by the finger of the Spirit of God drive out demons, the Kingdom of God has come upon you." So if I'm dealing with historic, historiographic questions, historical reliability questions, I needed to deal with the issue of whether these kinds of things could happen. This is pretty silly. And you just Well that was one of the reasons people argued against their reliability. The theists seem unwilling to do the work and want a pass anyway. She was miraculously healed. It's just like a lack of imagination there's just like Christian fundamentalism and there's atheist naturalism and there's no other world views, apparently. Craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens, Case Report of gastroparesis healing: 16 years of a chronic syndrome resolved after proximal intercessory prayer, Case report of instantaneous resolution of juvenile macular degeneration blindness after proximal intercessory prayer, Study of the therapeutic effects of proximal intercessory prayer (STEPP) on auditory and visual impairments in rural Mozambique, Delia Knox healed from being paralyzed after 22 years, Sean George comes back after a heart attack, https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/evidence-based-medicine/levels_of_evidence, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15166467/, https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/full-moon-does-not-affect-mental-health-emergency-room-study-suggests, first evidence for the accelerating universe, https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/, phenomenon of spontaneous recovery of heart activity, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/04/06/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-1-summary/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/10/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-2-littlewoods-law/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/24/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-3-georges-argument/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/26/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-4-evaluation-premise-1c/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/06/26/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-5-evaluation-of-premise-a4/, evidence that someone was sick at one time, evidence that they were not sick at a later time, sometime between those two points they claimed that they were prayed for (and don't always demonstrate that they actually were prayed), they used xrays to diagnose it originally, which is not the best for soft tissue. When I've heard the murderer analogy it is to argue against Hume's uniform human experience against miracles, because someone could argue for the murderer by claiming it is against his uniform experience to murder someone -- he's never murdered anyone before. Please open it and confirm your subscription. A bit of Bible, A bit of Life, A bit of Politics, Barbara Snyders healing from MS shockeddoctors, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2023/02/98-miraculous-healing-of-3-month-old-baby.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/forgiving-to-forget-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/13mysteryguard.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/dreams-and-visions-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/meekinheritanceworking-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/bringing-the-pain-in-prayer-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/whychristmasfellondec25.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/wjinterview.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/spiritual-warfare-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/kate-fisherinterview.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/podcast-5-what-really-sunk-peter-1.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/4-edited-you-are-not-a-mistakeaud.mp3, https://openthewordblog.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/3authorityopentheword.mp3. And sometimes there's also a catch-22 because after so many years the medical documentation has been discarded. And this time the doctor said she won't be coming back to the hospital. It is also correct to say that it depends on the prior probability of the claim, but it also depends on other desiderata of Jaynes, especially the ones dealing with consistency. It's still healing. As I've said before, the fact that there are no videos of this sort is strong evidence against the veracity of miracles. It's not biased to be skeptical. -pomelo- 9 mo. An immediate thought is how many times was he prayed over and nothing happened? It doesn't matter whether the claim is religious or scientific, the same rules apply. [3] Before Snyder became president of CWRU in July 2007, she was formerly the executive vice president and provost of Ohio State University. We are interested in the truth and are aware of many other factors (e.g. Medine was a war refugee for 18 months in her country of Congo. Can we come to any agreement here? He wrote to the Social Security Administration saying, "I'm not blind anymore." Scott Rae: Tell me first, one of the books I'd like to talk about first is the book Impossible Love. I mean I tried to get accounts from all sorts of different cultures. Even in seemingly obvious cases. Just, was it last night I think, we were talking and David Dockery was sharing about Grant Osbourne, a scholar friend of ours who passed away just this past month after an amazing career of scholarship, but when he was young he had asthma. University. All subjects demonstrated improvement from the intervention. Somebody we know, actually there were two people we know, who are witnesses of that one. A blessing to the rest of the Body of Christ. Craig Keener: Well I tried to get accounts from all over the world. Exactly when this point is depends on considerations around prior probability. But even with miracles, life expectancy is higher here than in Africa. So we interviewed Antoinette Malumbay. Elijah: they can verify that before and afterwards and i'm not sure it's rational to call those uh uh just coincidences like you're assuming some type of causality there um and i i think if you even allow for the possibility of something like the christian god to exist then um you've got to take seriously that it could be his action and then make an inference to the best explanation and where i think the voice of science comes in the best is in eliminating hypotheses not necessarily proving that's his voice and so you can go back and go well there's seven different hypotheses science can help us before eliminating some and then we've got two or three and we've got to critically think and go what do i think's most likely the case and i think that's the human situation and we make that call all the time we make it in court. because her twin didn't have it, it makes the original diagnosis questionable, the technology at the time is cited to be suboptimal in the paper, we can't tie the prayer specifically to the timeline, because of expectation effects and placebo effects, so causation is in doubt, she had a genuine improvement, but we have to ask which is more plausible, that there was a misdiagnosis (with the extra point about the twin sister) or the miracle played out in that way. A good response to this particular study is by Steven Novella at **Proximal Intercessory Prayer: Lets take the following hypothetical study: The study included 24 subjects who were all treated openly with the intervention in question. In my discussion with Jonathan McLatchie on the Still Unbelievable podcast, I said that there hasnt been a verified miracle claim even since Humes essay on miracles. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was ambivalent about whether these miracles still happen today. Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. But it's the same situation you have in the Gospels. He was 2200 in one eye and 2400 in the other and had already been through training for the blind. And Coco [inaudible] prayed and Terese started breathing again and the next day she was fine. The latter has more eyewitness testimony than we have for Barbara Snyder. I don't believe Barbara Snyder was cured by the intervention of some agent outside the natural world. Really? I asked. So what made you want to go in this direction? Facebook gives people the power. Hey, thanks for listening. Sometimes there really isn't enough available evidence to substantiate a claim. It also includes the audio recording of Duane Miller, Contains an interview with Bruce Van Natta, the mechanic I referenced who lost most of his small intestines in an accident and was later healed. God can heal us through medicine. Western Reserves president has been the greatest professional privilege of my Some of them, some of the critiques were based on an interview with me that was published in Christianity Today, rather than the book itself. God could choose methods that are not so easily confused with memory biases, measurement errors, and other distortions and it is suspicious that he doesn't operate that way. She worked as a teacher's aide for Headstart and was a member of St. Mary's Church in Elmira, NY. Listen to Strobel describe his journey and the most memorable miracle hes encountered below: Strobel said that he has long believed thatJesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels. Join us for this fascinating discussion of miracles today. She was blind, bedridden with severely impaired breathing due to a paralyzed diaphragm and a collapsed lung. It's walked though in a 5-part blog series: We keep coming back to the question about how you would test for miracles. It doesn't mean to stop praying for healing. And there were a number of other people who also, who were there at the occasion, who knew him before and after, who could testify to this. We wouldn't conclude that these things actually happened as reported, especially given the gaps in the timelines. And he said he prays for people here in the U.S., but it doesn't happen. This one is much like the previous one, but there is no study -- just the stories. Facebook gives people the power to share and makes the world more open and. It's a story of how you met your wife, Medina, and I'm taking I pronounced that correctly. Strobel went on to explain that he interviewed skeptics and believers, alike, and included their perspectives in The Case for Miracles. At the end of the project, Strobel said he was shocked to learn that miracles are not only common, but also well-documented. ago Is it possible she was misdiagnosed -- it wasn't MS, so looking for an MS recovery may be misdirected? Secondly we're talking about these things objectively, put yourself in situations where you can have experiential knowledge: pray for sick people that you know they would not be healed unless God showed up. Scott Rae: I love how you put that, that healing now is a foretaste of the Glory of the Kingdom. Has it been confirmed? James Fodor suggests, as an example, doing the prayer studies in different languages to help rule out some of the competing effects. life, President Snyder said. But there is another reason to study proximal prayer, which in this study meant physical laying on of hands, not just being near the subject. Elijah: I also think we in the west have a bias toward poor people as not having knowledge of when something's dead or an arm is broken or something of that nature and so I think when people put themselves in situations where they pray for the sick and a whole village knows this child was born blind from birth they're 15 years old and that person sees gets their sight back and this is a different religion and that village testifies he was blind now, he sees that is a different scenario than we're talking about here and the lens of science really can't speak to that. 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