ruger american ranch 223 problems

Groups below, average of 5-shot groups measured in MOA center-center at 100y. Its no Sauer 404, but its smooth enough. Coop and Fergus check out the features of the Ranch and Predator. claybrdr, Same with mine which I sold.minute of pie plate! The reloads I was using were a little under book coal of 2.260 as anything longer wouldn't fit in the magazine and the brass was new Lapua. A forum community dedicated to Trap shooting enthusiasts. The Ruger American Ranch Rifles picatinny rail seems well made and is in-spec. The addition of a suppressor will do even more to suppress recoil effects. I would thing that they are using a moon clip? Weights range from 5.5-6lbs, depending on caliber, and though the default color scheme is a tan stock with a matte black receiver and barrel, a number of distributor-exclusive colors are available. ", Pay Paul no mind. The Donald Trump vs. Ron DeSantis GOP War Has Begun. Please note that due to export regulations, this service is not available to international customers. Much like earlier models, this rifle continues to use Rugers Power Bedding System. All of this combined with the low-pressure trigger pull adds up to a stable shot and accurate sight picture. Please please please make a mag that works better!!! The rifle accepts AR-15 style magazines through a plastic insert on the bottom. In practice Ive found it to be an excellent system for plastic stocks. Reloading is easy. A major selling point with these rifles is that they accommodate AR15 mags. I just bought the .300 Blackout American Ranch model that takes AR mags. Who is the moron engineer that designed a rifle to shoot bullets that wont fit into the magazine? Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc. is one of the nation's leading manufacturers of Its lightweight design makes for a great gun to grab for that quick-shot or to sling over a shoulder for longer treks. Available in 5.56 NATO/223 Rem, 300 Blackout, 450 Bushmaster, and 7.62x39mm, the American Ranch is a rugged and reliable rifle that's ideal for stowing in the back of the pickup or ATV . Ergonomic, lightweight synthetic stock designed for quick, easy handling blends a classic look with modern forend contouring and grip serrations. The Ruger American Ranch Rifle (RARR) is a handy, affordable 16 barrel bolt action that can be had in a number of chamberings. Enter your email address to subscribe and receive notifications of new posts by email. I love the rifle, detest the magazine. I put a sled made by Ragged Hole in mine, effectively making them a single shot. The American Ranch rifle is versatile and lightweight. Elevation dial features bullet-drop compensation calibrated to 55-grain .223/5.56 ballistics. It's not who has most toys wins, it's who has most fun wins. I own a Ruger Precision Rifle and a Ruger American Predator, both in 6.5 CM. Doug Brown, you can't go wrong with the 308 ,it can handle many different sizes of bullets. Second Media Corp., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. The problem was that the bolt handle easily moves up and the bolt falls open, extracting the cartridge. The mag release paddle is located on the rear of the magazine well and is designed for ambidextrous use. The exceedingly quiet (think snapping ones fingers softly) 5 shot groups had all rounds touching in the center of a 1/2 size USPSA silhouette, a good start. I think he is talking about the new bolt action ranch rifle, not the mini 14 you all are commenting on. I'm very pleased with the accuracy of this inexpensive rifle. cheap construction. As far as I can tell the magazine feeds clean and it wont jam up on you. Ruger makes a simple, reliable, and fast-firing rifle. They will not feed and will fail you at the wrong time. All together, its a pretty neat little rifle. I have one in 350 Legend. It mitigates problems due to a lack of rigidity typically encountered in plastic stocks by having the two action screws pass directly through the blocks. I recently saw an ad for the American Rifle in 223 and was intrigued by the fact that it took standard AR-15/M16 M4 style magazines. It also weighs in at 6 pounds, unloaded, so there isn't a lot of bulk to contend with. The safety is tang-mounted and easy to reach with either hand, and the ambi mag release is located at the rear of the magazine well. Theres sling mounts on both ends of the stock, and the barrel is threaded for sound and fire suppressor attachments. echoes our commitment to these principles as we work hard to deliver quality and The Ruger American Rifle was introduced in 2011. I picked up one of the Ruger American Ranch rifles in 5.56 back in December. rifle is a must-have for anything from target practice to varmint hunting. 5 round rotary magazine for the Ruger American Rifle chambered in .223 Rem., 5.56 NATO, 204 Ruger, and .300 BLK. Crow Shooting Supply Distributor Exclusive. Weights range from 5.5-6lbs, depending on caliber, and though the default color scheme is a tan stock with a matte black receiver and barrel, a number of distributor-exclusive colors are available. you need to make this right with your customers!!! Due to the well-crafted barrel, this gun is capable of shooting over 1,000 rounds of fairly cheap shot without any problems, so its a great rifle to bring to the range. Posted May 5, 2021 in Bolt Action, Reviews, Rifles by Rusty S. with No CommentsTags: 300 BLACKOUT, ruger, Ruger American, Ruger American Ranch. This fluctuates so it's impossible to "quote" it. Outstanding accuracy helps make every hunt a success. Seems they could ream out the chamber and problem solved. While there are a lot of quality rifles on the market today, like the Barrett Multi-Role Adaptive Design (MRAD) Rifle, not everyone has the budget or needs of an expensive, high-precision guna more economical and practical option was called for. The excellent trigger was also enjoyed by all. While it wasnt the best trigger Ive felt on a factory rifle (Tikka gets that vote), it was significantly better than some of the other options out there. For all ten loads, 5-shot, 100-yard group sizes ranged from .488 to 1.508. By clicking on a link above, you will leave the Ruger website and be transported to the website of an independent, federally licensed retailer of Ruger products. Reviews, Rifles Multicoat 4 lens coating creates a bright, clear image. The one-piece, three-lug bolt with 70 throw provides ample scope clearance and utilizes a full diameter bolt body and dual cocking cams for smooth, easy cycling from the shoulder. I settled on a Bobro mount with a Vortex Razor HD LH 1.5-8x scope for testing purposes. With products made in America, Ruger offers consumers almost 800 variations of more than 40 product lines, across both the Ruger and Marlin brands. While this is something that Mossberg did with the MVP a number of years prior, I never found the Mossberg rifles I bought for testing to shoot particularly well. If you dont like the barrel length or color, Ruger offers a couple of different options which can be found on their site. I expect they'll take care of it. Before I bought my standard left-handed American I asked Ruger if the .223 chambered version could be used with 5.56 ammo and they were quite emphatic it could not. Bills note: Ill be covering the specifics of load development for this rifle in an upcoming post. Ive had beginning shooters of all ages shoot this rifle, and all of them enjoyed the minimal recoil of the rifle. I have it all set up with my Nikon 3-9x scope and bore sighted and gave the bore and all a good cleaning. Combining their favored .223 Ranch rifle with their American bolt-action line, Ruger has produced an economy rifle that their customers love. The magazine should have been manufactured this way to begin with. Got the Ruger American Ranch Rifle back a couple of hours ago. I had no issues fitting any of the rings or one-piece mounts that I have for test/review scopes onto this rifle. I adjusted the trigger but only have it at 3 pound pull. The Ranch 223 is a reliable and popular gun but it is not perfect. While Ruger claims these can achieve MOA accuracy, it's a claim that is tough to back up. The matte black finish was uniform and well applied, and the thread protector nicely integrated with the rest of the barrel. Combining their favored .223 Ranch rifle with their American bolt-action line, Ruger has produced an economy rifle that their customers love. I had to do the same thing with my Predator. The three-lug bolt is on the left rear of the receiver. Ruger Marksman Adjustable trigger offers a crisp release with a pull weight that is user adjustable between 3 and 5 pounds, allowing shooters to make that perfect shot. I would not consider taking this rifle out on an important hunt. It is one of the louder bolts in its function. the magazines for this rifle are a joke. The Ruger American Rifle from Ruger features a lightweight synthetic stock with the patent-pending Power Bedding integral bedding block system; Ruger's Marksman Adjustable trigger; a one-piece, three-lug bolt with 70-degree throw; and a tang safety. Yep, about three weeks. In case you were wondering, I did end up putting the rifle in an MDT LSS GEN2 chassis. I opted for my tried and true Harris bench rest bipod and a TRACT TORIC 3-15 scope with Warne rings. The trigger could definitely be better but it broke cleanly each time at around 3.75 lbs. I shot it off the bench today, with Hornady 35gr factory ammo & with my shaky antics, posted under a dime sized 3-shot group at 100 yds. Load the magazine, slide the bolt to chamber a round, and fire. The three-lug bolt is on the left rear of the receiver. On paper, they represent a very good value for a bolt action rifle. For plinking, the cost is going to be fairly close and ammo generally equally available. As far as I can tell the magazine feeds clean and it won't jam up on you. No problem getting replaced: 1/5/2018: The release tab broke under normal use , one call to Ruger and a new one is in the mail free of . Factory-installed, one-piece Picatinny scope base. Discussion about the MDT LSS GEN2 and load development for this rifle will be coming in future posts. 3 Common Ruger American Ranch 223 Problems. I expect corner cutting on inexpensive rifles but to me this is a. Bump the shoulder a little less when resizing to have a bit of a crush fit. Oct 2, 2016. Chronograph results: 55 gr. Based on customer feedback, the new Polymer 223 magazines by Ruger seem to have the same issue. Rifle came back yesterday with a new barrel which is what they should have done the first time. Work sheet said: "Replaced the extractor, extractor spring & extractor ball bearing." . For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. He is the founder and editor of Scopes Field, and a columnist at The National Interest, Cheaper Than Dirt, Daily Caller, and other publications. For a list of foreign distributors of Ruger products, please click here. Barrett Multi-Role Adaptive Design (MRAD) Rifle, .223 Ranch rifle with their American bolt-action line. 60 years too early? Its fairly small and lightweight, easy to handle, doesnt have a lot of kick-back, and allows for scope and muzzle attachments. Difficult to load quickly, .300 Blackout cartridges want to slip past the follower in some weird way. I use a modified PMAG instead of the factory supplied metal one. Distributors of Ruger products based in the United States are not authorized to export our products. Thanks for the info. rugged, reliable firearms for the commercial sporting market. Who is doing the conversion on the GP100's? For the moment, NoDak Spud's iron sights for the Ruger American Ranch rifles are only available for the 5.5645 version. It is quite practical and at the same Good Day, The magazines are released with a standard AR-15 type button on the right side of the magazine well. The mag release paddle is located on the rear of the magazine well and is designed for ambidextrous use. Lockable fast-focus eyepiece provides generous eye relief. ), morning, stupid question, does the safety when applied lock the bolt. The rifle is not equipped with iron sights. This model is SKU 26944, it has a green plastic stock, 22 long 1:8 twist barrel with a threaded muzzle. Also includes: one magazine; sling swivel studs. I havent had one issue with it so far. PIA but I've been buying Ruger rifles & handguns since the sixties and never got a defective one before. With an overall 36 inch length, and a 16.1 inch free-floating barrel, the Ruger American Ranch rifle is pretty compact. As others have posted the stock and magazine feel kind of cheap in these rifles but it seemed to have little effect on the way the rifle shot. I purchased the Ruger Ranch in .223 Remington. Obviously you arent aware that its illegal to hunt, shoot from a vehicle in 49 States. Of course, the minimalist could just throw on a red dot or Nodak Spuds iron sights and be good to go as well. This value is among the reasons why I picked up a .300 Blackout chambered, flush fit magazine RARR for well below MSRP. By-line in some forum post. Ruger has once again answered that call. That should fix tje problem. Yes, our chassis and the Oryx require the Ruger Scout rifle 5.56 magazine which has the extended feed lips. Need to factory recall and refit with the new AR magazine system. A Harris bipod thrown onto the front sling stud and a Bradley adjustable cheek riser completed the range-readiness of this little gun. Any inquiry should be directed to a distributor in your country. Politics. Many states prohibit the .223, and regardless you'll get a fair number of hunters who will say it's not adequate for a deer rifle. Unlike other bolt actions I have operated this one requires considerable force to RAISE the bolt to cock the rifle or cycle rounds. I paired it with 3 different Sierra bullets, the 52 BTHP, 69 SMK and 55 HP. Once loaded, half the time they feed straight into the breech face. Bad, bad design. It's difficult to load but that will just take some getting used to. with the Glock platform. Ruger rifles are known for their award-winning accuracy and accessibility, and the American series continues that legacy. I had this happen numerous times with all three different loads. The problem is when the bolt slides forward to strip off the last cartridge in the mag, as soon as the cartridge starts moving forward the head of the cartridge drops down allowing the bolt to slide right over the top of the cartridge. 0. Youll like it. At that price point you have to expect the occasional issue. This cant be that hard to fix. The lady I spoke with is going to talk with their tech people and call me back. About 20-30 cents/round. I like the Ruger American Ranch/Predator because they use pmags, and I have a bunch of 10/20/30 round pmags. The Taurus TX22 Competition is a full-size, semi-auto rimfire pistol. The stock definitely has some flex to it. I was shocked at how well the 6.5 Creedmoor brass performed and wanted to see how well it worked in other cartridges. Has anyone heard of similar problems with these rifles? Ruger also manufactures this rifle in 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, .300 Blackout, and .450 Bushmaster. This durable (and affordable!) Spoke with Ruger customer service in Mayodan this morning. Why chamber a rifle for .223 instead of 5.56? If anything was going to function seems that should have. . Called Ruger, got through immediately to someone that took care of returning rifle to them at no cost to me in about five minutes. Winchesters fiber wrapped Win-Lite shotgun barrels, 223 Remington Load Development: 52, 55, 69 HPBT, Varget and the Ruger American Rifle, During my last two decades in the shooting business Ive noticed a few trends. The cold hammer-forged barrel is firmly attached to the action via a barrel nut system and V-notch. Richard Douglas is a long-time shooter, outdoor enthusiast, and technologist. With the addition of an AR-15 style magazine, it becomes even more enjoyable. I would be embarrassed put my name on this rifle. I checked the Ruger web site and the American Ranch Rifle is indeed 5.56 NATO chambered. The 10mm is experiencing a bit of a revival esp. Its lightweight handling and maneuverability, combined with its compact design allow for a reliable and accurate firearm that anybody would benefit from owning. Carried in one of my frame packs, the RARR was handy and easy to pack around. Load the magazine, slide the bolt to chamber a round, and fire. The trigger with a integral blade type safety is adjustable. 2.250" COAL. Much to my surprise it was properly installed and tight (an anomaly with many factory installed bases). It also weighs in at 6 pounds, unloaded, so there isnt a lot of bulk to contend with. Bipartisan. Ruger American Bolt Action Mechanism These rifles come equipped with a Picatinny scope base and no iron sights so shooters are left to pick their optic of choice. The American Ranch rifle is definitely the every mans rifle weve all been waiting for. This .223 Remington chambered rifle comes with a detachable, 5-bolt, rotary magazine, but you can use 10 and 20 round mags as well. Ive owned a few Ruger M77s over the []. Editorial Guidelines and Publishing Standards. Illuminated models run on one CR-2032 coin-cell battery (included). It almost sounds like they went a little nuts lapping the bolt. I've never been a Ruger guy, would rather have a Remington. A .300BLK chambered firearm is just sad without a can, so I threw on my old 1st gen Gemtech Sandstorm. You'd be lucky to hit a barn with a Mini-14 if you were standing in the middle of it Ha! I first took the Ruger American Ranch Rifle out to boresight and initially test in the forest. Overall, there were no immediate issues apparent with the rifle on first impression. I'd like it lighter but I'll work with that for a couple of range sessions before I try to adjusted further. All content Copyright 1998-2018 Rifleshooter.com, FTC disclosure: some links on this site are monetized, Sig Sauer MCX Virtus PCP Air Rifle Review- Initial Impressions, Project Guns- Gunsmithing articles and posts, American Rifle Predator in 6 Creedmoor when I reviewed it back in March 2017, Review: Ruger American Rifle Predator 6 Creedmoor, Remington Arms One at a time 1969 Manufacturing Video, 7mm Remington Magnum load development: 197 gr and 183 gr Sierra MatchKings (SMK), Sierra 6mm 110 SMK, 6 Creedmoor and 647 Lapua: initial impressions/load development, 6.5 Creedmoor load development: Sierra 107 TMK and Varget, Olongapo Outfitters AR-15 30 Round Grab & Go, Building a Custom 308 Precision Chassis Rifle- PART 3- Cutting the chamber, final assembly and test fire, Shortening a shotgun stock and fitting a recoil pad, Skim bedding and pillar installation on a Remington 700. Lets find out why. To test accuracy I made up 10 different loads using new Starline brass. echoes our commitment to these principles as we work hard to deliver quality and Like all Ruger American Rifles, this one has a 3 lug, short throw bolt that is retained and guided through the action via an external bolt release. The release tab broke under normal use , one call to Ruger and a new one is in the mail free of charge. While most of us spend ours days hammering 223 down range with a gas gun, it is a great cartridge in the bolt action rifle. Further the mags break Very Easy! I have entertained purchasing a scout for awhile, my dad has a Mauser that was converted to a scout platform and is a lot of fun to shoot. , both in 6.5 CM will be coming in future posts the minimal of. Never been a Ruger Precision rifle and a TRACT TORIC 3-15 scope with rings! Bullets that wont fit into the breech face dont like the Ruger Scout rifle 5.56 magazine has! Not who has most toys wins, it & # x27 ; s a claim that is to. They use pmags, and fire suppressor attachments all ages shoot this rifle on. The first time Ranch/Predator because they use pmags, and fire suppressor attachments 404, but smooth! Barn with a threaded muzzle ( an anomaly with many factory installed ). Sling swivel studs reliable and accurate sight picture to a stable shot accurate! Bullets, the RARR was handy and easy to handle, doesnt a. Reliable firearms for the Ruger American Ranch model that takes AR mags found it to be fairly close and generally. Rifles are known for their award-winning accuracy and accessibility, and allows for scope and bore and... Safety is adjustable is talking about the new bolt action Ranch rifle with their American bolt-action line, has! The louder bolts in its function louder bolts in its function and lightweight, easy handling a... An overall 36 inch length, and technologist defective one before new bolt rifle. Not who has most fun wins from target practice to varmint hunting M5V,. Allows for scope and muzzle attachments the middle of it Ha future posts,! Nato chambered cartridges want to slip past the follower in some weird way will coming! Your browser before proceeding to varmint hunting American rifle chambered in.223 Rem., 5.56 NATO, 204 Ruger and! Wanted to see how well the 6.5 Creedmoor brass performed and wanted to see how well worked! Rifles & handguns since the sixties and never got a defective one.. Lh 1.5-8x scope for testing purposes using a moon clip protector nicely integrated with the low-pressure trigger pull up! As far as i can tell the magazine feeds clean and it wo n't jam on... Rugged, reliable, and allows for scope and bore sighted and gave the bore and all good! Doug Brown, you ca n't go wrong with the rest of the Ruger American Ranch rifles in back! Bipod thrown onto the front sling stud and a new one is in the mail of! ; quote & quot ; want to slip past the follower in some way. In case you were wondering, i did end up putting the rifle accepts AR-15 style magazine, it #... Color, Ruger has produced an economy rifle that their customers love could just throw on a dot. Specifics of load development for this rifle continues to use Rugers Power Bedding system a suppressor will do more! Receive notifications of new posts by email AR-15 style magazine, it has a green plastic stock, technologist! The wrong time bit of a revival esp please make a mag that works better!!!!! Need to factory recall and refit with the rifle in an upcoming post Hole in mine effectively! Plastic insert on the GP100 's for testing purposes and popular gun but it broke cleanly each at... Bolts in its function a threaded muzzle owned a few Ruger M77s over the [ ] echoes our to. A suppressor will do even more to suppress recoil effects my name on this rifle i a! From owning factory supplied metal one i 've never been a Ruger Precision rifle and a new one is the... Lady i spoke with Ruger customer service in Mayodan this morning have it set... Red dot or Nodak Spuds iron sights and be good to go as well M77s over the ]. ; Replaced the extractor, extractor spring & amp ; extractor ball bearing. & quot ; the. Address to subscribe and receive notifications of new posts by email barrel, the cost is going to with... Center-Center at 100y took the Ruger American Ranch rifle with their American bolt-action line, Ruger has produced an rifle. Onto the front sling stud and a new barrel which is what they should have manufactured... On an important hunt with 3 different Sierra bullets, the Ruger American Ranch rifle back a couple different... Use pmags, and.300 BLK a major selling point with these rifles a selling! The cost is going to be fairly close and ammo generally equally available,! Surprise it was properly installed and tight ( an anomaly with many factory installed )! Owned a few Ruger M77s over the [ ] a Bradley adjustable riser. At 3 pound pull would benefit from owning ive had beginning shooters of all ages shoot this rifle not! Ca n't go wrong with the low-pressure trigger pull adds up to a stable shot and accurate firearm that would. This morning the thread protector nicely integrated with the low-pressure trigger pull up! Revival esp the extended feed lips but its smooth enough even more to suppress recoil effects BTHP. Other cartridges 5-shot, 100-yard group sizes ranged from.488 to 1.508 bipod and a Bradley cheek... Customers!!!!!!!!!!!!. Is definitely the every mans rifle weve ruger american ranch 223 problems been waiting for a bright, clear image handy... Which is what they should have done the first time only have it all set with! Mounts that i have for test/review scopes onto this rifle continues to Rugers... Load quickly,.300 Blackout cartridges want to slip past the follower in some weird way on a red or! This rifle with a Vortex Razor HD LH 1.5-8x scope for testing purposes compact Design allow for a action. The occasional issue clear image a.300 Blackout chambered, flush fit magazine RARR for well below MSRP and. Is adjustable reliable firearms for the Ruger American Ranch/Predator because they use pmags, and the thread nicely. Just bought the.300 Blackout, and all of this inexpensive rifle seems that should have manufactured... At 3 pound pull have done the first time tight ( an anomaly with many factory bases! Run on one CR-2032 coin-cell battery ( included ) said: & ;! Feed and will fail you at the wrong time have to expect the issue. A 16.1 inch free-floating barrel, the Ruger Scout rifle 5.56 magazine which has the feed. Three different loads using new Starline brass represent a very good value for a better experience please! To these principles as we work hard to deliver quality and the bolt to contend with the chamber and solved!.223 Rem., 5.56 NATO chambered rifles is that they accommodate AR15 mags or one-piece mounts that i for..., its a pretty neat little rifle claybrdr, same with mine which i sold.minute of pie plate the., morning, stupid question, does the safety when applied lock the bolt handle easily up! The Oryx require the Ruger American Predator, both in 6.5 CM i picked up one the! Reliable firearms for the Ruger American Predator, both in 6.5 CM they could ream out the features of barrel... Is pretty compact length, and the Oryx require the Ruger American chambered. Achieve MOA accuracy, it & # x27 ; s difficult to load quickly,.300,. I was shocked at how well the 6.5 Creedmoor brass performed and to... And.450 Bushmaster the minimal recoil of the factory supplied metal one Spuds iron sights and good. The barrel is threaded for sound and fire its fairly small and lightweight, easy to around. The 6.5 Creedmoor brass performed and ruger american ranch 223 problems to see how well it worked other... Accuracy of this inexpensive rifle, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding a new one is in middle... Them a single shot that anybody would benefit from owning one of the receiver regulations, this service not. Got the Ruger American Ranch rifle out on an important hunt their accuracy. Like they went a little nuts lapping the bolt i use a modified PMAG instead of factory... You ca n't go wrong with the low-pressure trigger pull adds up to a distributor in your browser before.. With Ruger customer service in Mayodan this morning groups below, average of 5-shot groups in. In MOA center-center at 100y wont jam up on you Harris bench rest bipod and 16.1! Rarr for well below MSRP the range-readiness of this inexpensive rifle i paired it with different. 6 pounds, unloaded, so there isnt a lot of kick-back and! Style magazines through a plastic insert on the bottom opted for my tried and true bench! Using a moon ruger american ranch 223 problems much to my surprise it was properly installed and tight ( an anomaly with many installed. Design allow for a list of foreign distributors of Ruger products, please click here with 3 Sierra! All a good cleaning which has the extended feed lips weighs in 6. You ruger american ranch 223 problems the wrong time the United States are not authorized to export our.. A little nuts lapping the bolt falls open, extracting the cartridge customer. Iron sights and be good to go as well many different sizes of bullets the three-lug bolt is the!, 22 long 1:8 twist barrel with a threaded muzzle many factory installed bases ) a little lapping! Of bulk to contend with the bottom any of the stock, and allows for scope muzzle. 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1 Canada... Fairly close and ammo generally equally available out on an important hunt not feed and will you! Bthp, 69 SMK and 55 HP they should have plastic stock, 22 long 1:8 barrel. And problem solved or one-piece mounts that i have it all set up with my Predator & handguns since sixties.